2F and NC...

[bigdog]

I applaud your efforts and intentions Chris, but you have a hard road ahead. I have been involved in motorsport for some time now, (currently chair a national group within historic racing) and I can say that this is a perennial problem with every category in existence except the COD historic groups. Virtually every category has started out with best intentions but have soon been hijacked by those wanting to be king of the sandpit with big wallets. Possible exceptions are formula vee and formula ford, but even these categories have come under pressure to change to more expensive components, and FF is hardly cheap these days.

The fundamental issue is a difference in attitude among competitors - broadly there are those who love racing and would love to win but are realistic enough to accept that it may not ever happen, and those to whom winning is everything, and who go home dissatisfied if they are in any way uncompetitive. Nothing wrong with either approach, but this is what puts the pressure on categories and stimulates the 'cheats'. This is the background to my love of historics - no matter how much you want to win, you can't re-write history, if your car was uncompetitive in its day it will remain so forever because you can't modify it. So I can get on with enjoying honing my setup and driving skills without worrying about spending money on modifications to be 'more competitive'. If the car gets quicker its down to me!

You have the right idea - follow the FV and FF route and lock all the performance enhancing areas from the start, but don't be surprised when people start cheating or asking for changes, because that's what they've always done! Oh and the other chestnut is the 'don't devalue my car' one - nobody (well apart from Boyracer!) ever makes money out of race cars, and there is only one rule - the day you buy it it is obsolete and valueless. If rulemakers had to guarantee resale value on cars then we would still be racing cyclecars from the the 1920s. By all means accomodate the older cars in the series, but don't base the idea on resale values. Also, bear in mind you are going to need an eligibility officer in each state to enforce your rules, and they can't be current competitors if you want to avoid criticism.... Good luck with it, I look forward to seeing it come to fruition.

[tbro]

I agree 100% with big dog.

I'm sure we all can remember what happened to appendix J, HQs and Gemini's when the blokes with the BIG wallets came to town.

How anybody can spend $100,000+ on an appendix J car to win a plastic trophy has always had me stumped!

The eligibility officers in all states would need to agree to exactly how the rules are interpreted and would need to be in constant contact with each other.

The penalties for ANY breach would need to be severe enough to make the racers think twice about even trying to breach the rules.
As for sealing engines,gearboxes etc, I believe that applying a product similar to microdot would be a fool proof way of beating any attempt of bending the rules.

As far as EO for QLD I'd be willing to put up my paw and volunteer!!

Good luck with the proposal.

Terry

[CT]

The only requirement will be when we organise a race meeting for ALL MX5’s then those NC’s at that event will have to meet these requirements. If you have a NC and wish to modify it outside of the 2F NC regs you will not be permitted to run.

Chrisso, while I applaud most of the intent - If someone wanted to run an NC in 2B spec or national 2F spec for that matter, why would you ban it from running? Surely it would just be classed as 2B or 2F just like the current NBs and NAs and not be eligible for points or plasticware in the 2F NC class. If this series starts to restrict cars from entering, it's life will be very, very short. Cars must be able to be competitive from club up to state and then at national level if you really want a series with longevity.

I'd be very wary of creating a class of cars that aren't competitive outside of a small, club based series. That does not bode well for resale values of any car.

Again, the misconceptions I hear about Spec Miata racing in the US being affordable is absurd - do some research on the Sunnybelt engine scandal for a start. There is nothing cheap about Spec Miata racing except maybe buying the road car to start with. The money those guys spend to tolerence their engines and buy multiple suspension components looking for factory anomolies would amaze you.

Before anyone decides to race cars and think you can race cheaply, understand this;
- someones always got more money than you
- someones always faster than you
- someone will always spend more money to go faster than you.

[SKYHI]

Chris,

I think what Chris G is proposing is that an NC would need to comply with those regulations only if they wanted to run in the 2F class. If someone wants to do a highly modified NC within the existing 2B or even 2A rules then there is no stopping them.

Every knows that motorsport is not cheap BUT you can make it more affordable if some restrictions on modifications are put in place.

Paul.

[Cal]

I think what Chris G is proposing is that an NC would need to comply with those regulations only if they wanted to run in the 2F class. If someone wants to do a highly modified NC within the existing 2B or even 2A rules then there is no stopping them.

Not even. If someone wants to build an $80K NC to race in 2F, good for them. This is a gentlemen's agreement between competitors to virtually invent a new class. In a perfect world we would have done it with the NA's and NB's but there are too many built. The idea is to keep the MX5's close. Let's not forget you can race an Exige or any number of exotics in 2F and you are going to cream the MX5's. This is more to do with MX5 racing than it is to do with Prod Sports. I think we are getting to the point where we have enough numbers to fill grids in 2 states anyway.

[SKYHI]

I think what Chris G is proposing is that an NC would need to comply with those regulations only if they wanted to run in the 2F class. If someone wants to do a highly modified NC within the existing 2B or even 2A rules then there is no stopping them.

Not even. If someone wants to build an $80K NC to race in 2F, good for them. This is a gentlemen's agreement between competitors to virtually invent a new class. In a perfect world we would have done it with the NA's and NB's but there are too many built. The idea is to keep the MX5's close. Let's not forget you can race an Exige or any number of exotics in 2F and you are going to cream the MX5's. This is more to do with MX5 racing than it is to do with Prod Sports. I think we are getting to the point where we have enough numbers to fill grids in 2 states anyway.

Ah, I see. I thought the intention was to introduce these regs to keep a "relatively" level playing field in 2F, and anyone wishing to build an NC outside of these regs would be classified as either 2B or 2A, depending on the modifications.

I'm all for the "gentlemans agreement" and believe most guys would support it to help maintain the close & affordable racing we currently enjoy. It will also elimintae the issue of compliance checks.

For the sake of the category I hope most guys looking to get into the NCs agree to abide by this proposal.

Paul.

[fish]

yeah i don't think we are going to/want to eradicate mixed fields at this stage
and like cal said we aren't stopping anyone from building a million dollar NC .
but that million dollar NC will not be in the class "gentlemen s-NC " or whatever we end up calling it ...
If we get enough people in the "gentlemen s NC" class down the track
then maybe we could look at running an independent "gentlemen s-NC " class series
concurrently with the current series .

like most promoters say ..........you get a big enough field of like vehicles
,,,,you get your own race !!!

[mx5racing]

Thanks for all your posts. Whilst there are different opinions it's great to see that everyone can see the positives!!

De-valuing the NA/NB is a prickly one. Like everything the market dictates the value of a said product. Recently there have been quite a few NA advertised with $25K plus asking prices. Some of these have sold – others haven’t. Some of these are front running cars and others are midpack cars. Are the midpack ones positioned there because of the car or driver?? If it’s the car then how much will it take to get it up the front - $5k, $8k or perhaps more? We’re back on the vicious circle again where the $25k cars owe $40+.

I believe there is a “market correction” happening on the value of NA’s. This is already taking place as some of the $25k + car’s prices get reduced to $20,000. All this was happening before the NC came along. The reality of the situation is if today someone sets out to build a MX5 for racing a fully worked NA will cost the same amount as a STD NC with the mods as listed above. Laptimes for both will be similar however as the NA is worked to within an inch of its life failures are inevitable and the cost of racing just goes up and up.

If we take Paul’s NA for example. Here’s a guy want to get into MX5’s and have some close, fun racing. He buys his car, sets it up with limited mods (not dissimilar to the proposed ones for the NC) and is ready to hit the track. Now with the car as it is its going to be a mid pack car - the situation is, if he wants to be at the front of the current 2F NA cars, he has to spend BIG $$ to get there. He can steer very well and is a clean driver, there’s not question of this. Put him in the NC and he would be up the front no probs.

And the cars will still be reasonably quick

We’re currently doing 1.50’s at the Creek, 1.21’s at OP GP, 1.09’s at W/Park. This is as fast as the fastest 2F’s in NSW. If we keep them mostly standard then the reliability is excellent in turn reducing the cost of racing. I’ve said it before we can run 2 ½ NC’s for the cost of one SE, and ours SE’s were a lot cheaper to run than some of the current 2B out there.

This is more to do with MX5 racing than it is to do with Prod Sports

Very true. I’m not going in a discussion re ProdSports, suffice to say, they are struggling for numbers.

I know it won’t be easy but if we get the MAJORITY of people working with us to dig deep and make it happen we have the best chance. As I’ve said before -. I strongly believe we only get one chance to not make the mistakes of the past. If we take a stand now the future will looks rosy for the LONG TERM future.

Also be aware this is not something that we have just thought about. We have all been working to try and make the MX5’s racing the best we car. Whist the current NC situation is only a few months old, generally there has been widespread discussion regarding NA/NB’s. The NC talk has involved most of the major players in NSW and QLD.

That said, as we all know, the more people you bring to the table on a matter the less that gets decided.....

Chris.

[CT]

I think what Chris G is proposing is that an NC would need to comply with those regulations only if they wanted to run in the 2F class. If someone wants to do a highly modified NC within the existing 2B or even 2A rules then there is no stopping them.

My point is that under CAMS regs, you can build a hotrod 2F MX5 NC and it is technically legal under 2F at state and national levels. So, you introduce classes to deal with it, ie 2F and then 2F NC for the special NCs but to ban it from running would be a little ridiculous and pretty arrogant IMO. Surely the goal is to have a grid of 30+ MX5s in NSW first, regardless of the spec and model. I personally would never support exclusion of any model MX5 as long as it complies to CAMS specs.

[SKYHI]

I have spoken to Chris about this proposal and touched on this point as well. I can see both points of view but I must say I'm still leaning more towards your point of view CT. The biggest thing with this category has always been to get as many cars on the grid as possible, whether they be 2F, 2B or even 2A cars. Numbers talk and when we can promise a promoter a field of 20-25 cars consistently then we have a voice.

On the other side of the coin, Chris would ideally like a situation where anyone watching the category can be satisfied that the NC cars running are of the same specification and that success in one of those cars has a lot to do with driver ability. In an ideal world this would be great but it all revolves around having the numbers to make it work.

Perhaps there could be some compromise where the NC cars running to Chris' specs having a windscreen banner or something?

Paul.

[FMS01]

windscreen banner

How about "CHEQUEBOOK RACER"

Julian

[CapitalF]

As a potential 2F racer one of the things holding me back is the big $ to spend on a motor and those never ending tweaks to be *at least* competitive / mid pack. It's the exact reason I got out of racing 4WD's a few years back. Big budgets making the difference beyond what the driver can make.

A limited mod series, (in reality limiting a *lot* of initial and ongoing cost) is very appealing. Door Handle to door handle racing can be fantastic knowing it's about you and not the difference in cars.

I'm watching this with great interest and believe if you want to grow the #'s involved this is a great strategy.

Peter

PS Can't make it to Morgan Park as will be away in SA. Would be there for a close look otherwise.

[colster3]

As someone who is new to car racing, I have participated in 2 great events put on by Chris G, Simone and the team

I have enjoyed the benefit of 'devalued NA's' buying one for a very good price This car doesn't really comply with 2F (no door internals, no spare seat etc) but I don't really care! At Wakefield I had the best fun running with some NAs, NBs and a couple of the gentlemen s NCs. Most were on semi slicks (I had my first set of new slicks!!) but the racing was close, we all came of the track full of adrenalin and I figure most are looking forward to November!
I would love to be at the pointy end but know my budget limitations so I do the best with what I've got. I agree that there will always be someone who has a bigger wallet or believes that sheep stations are hanging on every race. If that's there gig, let em go! I am happy to be out there mixing it with others who enjoy racing.

If I was 30+ years younger, I would be chasing FF or F3 or going to England to further my career but at 50, just competing is fun.

I do have plans to change a few parts as time and funds permit - after all, to me the building and test ing are just as much fun as the racing.

[Cal]

So your car is a 2B car?

[colster3]

So your car is a 2B car?

Yep and I am running slicks. Haven't really cared about position, just to have fun with some other MX 5s. The reality is that there are plenty of 2F cars with more horsepower (or more enthusiastic drivers).

Whilst my car doesn't have window glass or a spare seat, if there ends up being a differentiation by slick and treaded tyres, I might just plum for some Toyo 888s and save on having wets and drys. Not really worried about trophies, just good close racing!