Cams.. Discussion, which may lead to a cheap group buy

Engines, Transmissions & Final Drive questions and answers

Moderators: timk, Stu, -alex, miata, StanTheMan, greenMachine, ManiacLachy, Daffy, zombie, Andrew, The American, Lokiel

User avatar
Bevan
Speed Racer
Posts: 2599
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2004 8:18 pm
Vehicle: ND - 2 GT
Location: N-West Sydney

Re:

Postby Bevan » Thu Mar 16, 2006 3:35 pm

Babalouie wrote:
maxwolfie wrote:Thanks for that... However going with a mild cam such as the 805C-NT - Would there be any REAL (i.e. worthwhile) improvement.. ?
You'll pick up say 5rwkw, and it'll open up a lot at the top end. But basically it will be the same sort of gain as say, adding headers and a zorst. The main benefit IMHO is that it "rounds out" the powerband, and makes the motor into the engine it should always have been...but it isn't a super-dramatic change by any means.
Mmmm, goes to sleep pondering CAI, headers and cams, combined with aftermrket ECU. :)

User avatar
adamjp
Racing Driver
Posts: 519
Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2003 11:00 am
Vehicle: NA6
Location: Sthn NSW
Contact:

Postby adamjp » Thu Mar 16, 2006 8:43 pm

For fits and giggles I ran the 805c in the Dyno 2000.

It works very well, developing a broad power band. Much more streetable than the 845c (obvious).

My choice would be the 805c over the 845c for normal use.

As pointed out earlier, the 805 will not require heavier valve springs to work effectively. With less lift and overlap, you have a better chance of getting the car to idle without an aftermarket ECU.
Adam
RX7AFM PortedHead 11.5:1 HKS264Cams&Gears CeramicCoatedExtractors FlowExhaust Strut&BodyBraces Eibachs Konis SparcoRims Striped

yarnmx5
Fast Driver
Posts: 113
Joined: Wed Dec 24, 2003 11:42 am

Postby yarnmx5 » Tue Mar 21, 2006 8:58 pm

Just had my new NA6 engine dynoed, made 86.6rwkw at 6800rpm. Sounds great you say, well it does, but the cams in it are much more extreme than I thought. I reckon the engine sounds more like a rotary than a 1600 4 cylinder. The idle is atrocious. But it goes pretty hard from about 3000rpm.

I am supposed to drive this everyday and now I'm not sure if I can live with it. The problem is, the highly developed head has been converted to solid lifters, springs etc and I can't just go back to changing the cams, I have to put a standard head back on. Also, I sold off all of my standard bits and now run with microtech.

Not sure what the duration of the cams are, however they have been specially ground to lotus BDA cam profile.

Watch this space, head with cams with Micortech MT8 may be for sale soon.

User avatar
maxwolfie
Racing Driver
Posts: 867
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 6:22 pm
Vehicle: ND - 2 GT
Location: Western Sydney, NSW
Contact:

Postby maxwolfie » Tue Mar 21, 2006 9:04 pm

The 805C's are becoming quite tempting..
'89 JDM NA6 (black)
2" s/s ex., 4-2-1 extractors, high flow cat, RX-7 AFM + pod, lightened fly, h/d clutch, 2 way lsd, slotted rtrs, Racing beat type II front bar, Speedy 17" wheels

User avatar
maxwolfie
Racing Driver
Posts: 867
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 6:22 pm
Vehicle: ND - 2 GT
Location: Western Sydney, NSW
Contact:

Re:

Postby maxwolfie » Tue Mar 21, 2006 9:05 pm

[quote="yarnmx5"]Just had my new NA6 engine dynoed, made 86.6rwkw at 6800rpm. Sounds great you say, well it does, but the cams in it are much more extreme than I thought. I reckon the engine sounds more like a rotary than a 1600 4 cylinder. The idle is atrocious. But it goes pretty hard from about 3000rpm.

I am supposed to drive this everyday and now I'm not sure if I can live with it. The problem is, the highly developed head has been converted to solid lifters, springs etc and I can't just go back to changing the cams, I have to put a standard head back on. Also, I sold off all of my standard bits and now run with microtech.

Not sure what the duration of the cams are, however they have been specially ground to lotus BDA cam profile.

Watch this space, head with cams with Micortech MT8 may be for sale soon.[/quote

Keep me updated :)
'89 JDM NA6 (black)
2" s/s ex., 4-2-1 extractors, high flow cat, RX-7 AFM + pod, lightened fly, h/d clutch, 2 way lsd, slotted rtrs, Racing beat type II front bar, Speedy 17" wheels

User avatar
AJ
Speed Racer
Posts: 4349
Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2005 8:27 pm
Vehicle: NC
Location: Gold Coast

Postby AJ » Tue Mar 21, 2006 9:07 pm

that's the big issue as a rule yarn...........performance & power versus driveability.........you've joined a VERY long line stretching back to infinity my friend :lol: ............i'm in that line also, just 20 yrs in front of you mate :wink: ..........let it settle in & learn to overcome the difference, you'll be right :mrgreen:
Image
Don't worry about what people think, they don't do it very often
XMX5 Rogues

User avatar
Matty
Racing Driver
Posts: 1652
Joined: Wed Apr 23, 2003 11:00 am
Vehicle: NB8A
Location: Melbourne
Contact:

Re:

Postby Matty » Wed Mar 22, 2006 8:15 am

yarnmx5 wrote:Just had my new NA6 engine dynoed, made 86.6rwkw at 6800rpm. Sounds great you say, well it does, but the cams in it are much more extreme than I thought. I reckon the engine sounds more like a rotary than a 1600 4 cylinder. The idle is atrocious. But it goes pretty hard from about 3000rpm.

I am supposed to drive this everyday and now I'm not sure if I can live with it.


Assuming you have adjustable cam gears (you do have adjustable cam gears don't you?), try reducing the overlap.

Babalouie
godfather of saké
Posts: 1457
Joined: Wed Apr 23, 2003 11:00 am
Vehicle: ND - 2 GT
Location: Sydney Australia
Contact:

Re:

Postby Babalouie » Wed Mar 22, 2006 3:03 pm

Matty wrote:
yarnmx5 wrote:Just had my new NA6 engine dynoed, made 86.6rwkw at 6800rpm. Sounds great you say, well it does, but the cams in it are much more extreme than I thought. I reckon the engine sounds more like a rotary than a 1600 4 cylinder. The idle is atrocious. But it goes pretty hard from about 3000rpm.

I am supposed to drive this everyday and now I'm not sure if I can live with it.


Assuming you have adjustable cam gears (you do have adjustable cam gears don't you?), try reducing the overlap.


Agreed...what are the cam specs, and also what timing have they set it at?
Image
Japanese Nostalgic Car Magazine - Dedicated to classic japanese cars

MX5_DriftFury
Learner Driver
Posts: 20
Joined: Tue Jul 01, 2003 11:00 am
Vehicle: NB SP
Location: VIC
Contact:

Re:

Postby MX5_DriftFury » Fri Mar 31, 2006 12:28 pm

Dubly wrote:Horsepower and torque will always cross at 5252. By the looks of the posted dyno graph the numbers are BS.

horsepower = torque X rpm / 5252

torque = horsepower X 5252 / rpm

http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/868/


Wake Up! These "5252" numbers are just constants to allow for the imperial units that this particular equation is in (ft, lb-mass & minutes) as opposed to the SI unit version of the formula....remember, James watt defined 1hp as" the ability to lift 33,000lb-mass 1 ft high in 1 minute, ...they were small horsies!!)
My day gig is performing OEM engine power curves, and VCT engine developement, among other things, and they definitely do all not cross at 5252 rpm..........plus, where they cross depends on the relative graph scales used for tq & pwr axes.....believe me, some days i've run more power curves, than many people have seen in a lifetime....PROPER curves, held for 45 sec at every 250 rpm, not some flash in the pan Ramp run , in "shootout mode", whatever that means!!!

Generally, larger cam events (duration, IVC & EVO) all move the torque curve up in the rpm range, that's why you get more power (pwr= tq X revs...keep the torq the same, just push it up the rev range, and you instantly get more power)...that's how 1.8 litre 2ZZ toyo's & vtec hondas get big pwr numbers, a little bit of torque at a lot of revs. But the torque integral (area under the torque curve) is generally not much more than any other 4cyl dohc engine....indicative that BMEP hasn't changed (except s2000...much bterr BMEP). True, to shift the tq up higher does require good breathing to maintain tq (it falls away rapidly after peak tq on most engines, and power peak is when rate of increase in rpm is less than rate of decrease in tq...this is REALLY where thay cross!!!!)

But with careful balancing of cam events, and understanding of engine pumping loops, and gas exchange, you can sometimes have it both ways...more tq at higher rpm (more power), but maintaining most of the tq at lower rpms, and higher peak tq...all indicative that BMEP (cylinder filling & conversion of fuel energy into useful work) has been improved. VVT is the easiest way to do this, whilst maintaining driveability/emissions. But with fixed timing, there is a fundamental limit as to what you can achieve, because what's good down low is opposite of what's required up top. And what aplies for traditional engines (read 2v-v8) does not apply to modern 4v engines with big valve area to cylinder size ratios (ie: calculate valve curtain area ...to determine actual cam specs required)...heck my ducati runs STD factory cams 0f nearly 330 intake duration...........and it's still ok at low rpm!

AFM type systems are quite ok with bigger cams, just need to tweak spark maps (ie; base timing adj), but can strike trouble with pulastions & oscillations of the trapdoor at lower rpm,heavy load...but fine at the topend (except for restriction!!)...MAF (hotwire for all 1.8's) is much more sensitive to "backflow"...remeasuring air it has already measured as intake pulsations drive the air back and forth at low rpm, high load, and sometimes near peak tq. PITA to overcome, especially as Mazda MAF's are pretty bad in this respect (except VVT one, a bit better)...need late suby or ford focus MAF!!! 4 cyls te worst, as no overlaping intake pulses to damp the resonances. Secret is to keep overlap around 25-30 degrees, and should fuel OK (symptom is running rich at low rpm, high load)...elasewhere wil be ok. Spark will need to be tweaked though.
VIC 2LSS Champ 07-08

Zettai Kuruma no Otaku
Ca 1:03.1 Wi 1:32.6. PI 1:44 | 0-100=3.7s, 400m=11.8s
NARDO, 167mph FocRS,McLaren MP4-12C USA-56s [/b]

MX5_DriftFury
Learner Driver
Posts: 20
Joined: Tue Jul 01, 2003 11:00 am
Vehicle: NB SP
Location: VIC
Contact:

Postby MX5_DriftFury » Fri Mar 31, 2006 12:44 pm

PS: Babs is right, best to go for Alpha-N (Tp vs rpm) with bigger cams, but NAT ASP ONLY!!!! If your idel vac is less than 15\"Hg, then aplh-N recommended, but if less than 12\", it is almost mandatory for idle, etc. This is where the prob exists....but can get around it with appropriate filtering (read buying a GOOD ECU!!)....310 deg cams in falcon engine, running MAP on factory ECU, idling smooth at 1100 rpm, stock engine and cleaned up ports std valves, 264 kw at 6000rpm, no turbo! And mama could drive it!

It's only factory map cars that are affected by cam changes coz the ECU thinks that the engi ne is at much higher load than it is....when you have programmable ecu, even on MAP, you can tweak the load ranges at idle anyway, so the fuelling is right at the lower levels of vacuum.

Better still is hybrid alph-N...use TP position for \"closed throttle\", eg: idle & overun, and use MAP everywhere else. This works for turbo's with big cams then as well. (alpha-n on a turbo engine = temporary engine, as no measure of charge density!!)

One other point...pay attention to spark...this is MUCH more important to power than fuel. Everyone tosses off about 12.5 AFR (lambda 0.85), but never does spark loops to find MBT optimum spark!!!!!! :shock: :shock:

Going 10% rich on fuel might lose 2-3% power at the most, but 2-3 degress of retarded (or over advanced!!!) spark around pk tq or power will cost you 10% or more!!!! You could run a carby, and digital mapped ingnition, and make nearly the same power....this is where most of the gains in engine output have occured...optimising the spark at ALL engine operating points (non knock-sensor engines are generally 4 deg away from optimum already, to allow for variation in engines, drivers, etc)...and it gets worse the higher the CR!!! But show many any tuner who spends much time on spark loops????? Coz customers only want to pay the time for AFR mapping, getting that magic 12.5 AFR!!! Most modern engines i know make more power down in the 10's AFR...manufactureres aren't silly you know!!!! That's why so many cars run down there, but if you don't do the loops to optimise ALL parameters, you'll never know, ya??

My 22c (inc gst) worth of a VERY misunderstood topic!

To quote Allan Moffat \"Having a Ferrari does not make you a Ferrari driver\", and to paraphase \"Having a laptop does not make you and engine tuner!!\" :D
VIC 2LSS Champ 07-08

Zettai Kuruma no Otaku
Ca 1:03.1 Wi 1:32.6. PI 1:44 | 0-100=3.7s, 400m=11.8s
NARDO, 167mph FocRS,McLaren MP4-12C USA-56s [/b]

MX5_DriftFury
Learner Driver
Posts: 20
Joined: Tue Jul 01, 2003 11:00 am
Vehicle: NB SP
Location: VIC
Contact:

Postby MX5_DriftFury » Fri Mar 31, 2006 12:52 pm

PS: 1.6's are on 33mm base circle

1.8\"s are on 36mm basecircle...all have 30mm HLA's

most 1.8 pef cams are ground on 33mm base circle...just means you need about an extra 1.5-1.7mm ontop of the valve stem!!

CT...smaller base circles are only a problem in relation to HLA diamter...this limits max rate of change of lift. But given that 30mm is quite OK for these basecircles, there should be no problems with sensibly ground cams. Shim under is a much better propostion than disc shim on top, coz shim on top reduces effective HLA diameter.

Basecircle becomes more of an issue with RFF (roller finger follower) valvtrains (eg; SR20, BA falcon, etc) coz it changes the rocker ratio & geometry. But good ol' buckets are the simplest form of valve train geometry (but also the highest friction of the OHC types), and very simple to calcualte ramps & lift curves & cam profile without creating excessive jerk (1st derivative of acceleration of the HLA).

Instead of going big springs to get bounce speed up, go for lighter components (ditch those heavy HLA's!!!).... i have some very light solid buckets, but they are 31mm (require maching of the lifter bores)....can supply as shim under or shim over.
VIC 2LSS Champ 07-08

Zettai Kuruma no Otaku
Ca 1:03.1 Wi 1:32.6. PI 1:44 | 0-100=3.7s, 400m=11.8s
NARDO, 167mph FocRS,McLaren MP4-12C USA-56s [/b]

User avatar
maxwolfie
Racing Driver
Posts: 867
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 6:22 pm
Vehicle: ND - 2 GT
Location: Western Sydney, NSW
Contact:

Postby maxwolfie » Fri Mar 31, 2006 12:54 pm

brain overload! :mrgreen:
'89 JDM NA6 (black)
2" s/s ex., 4-2-1 extractors, high flow cat, RX-7 AFM + pod, lightened fly, h/d clutch, 2 way lsd, slotted rtrs, Racing beat type II front bar, Speedy 17" wheels

Babalouie
godfather of saké
Posts: 1457
Joined: Wed Apr 23, 2003 11:00 am
Vehicle: ND - 2 GT
Location: Sydney Australia
Contact:

Re:

Postby Babalouie » Fri Mar 31, 2006 6:07 pm

MX5_DriftFury wrote:PS: Babs is right, best to go for Alpha-N (Tp vs rpm)....


Did I say that? :shock: I don't even know what that means :)
Image
Japanese Nostalgic Car Magazine - Dedicated to classic japanese cars

User avatar
irwin83r
Racing Driver
Posts: 1563
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 8:32 pm
Vehicle: NB8A
Location: wollongong
Contact:

Postby irwin83r » Fri Mar 31, 2006 6:52 pm

im with max... :shock:

but some damn fine info there, still trying to get my head around most of it.

damn i want an ecu an cams now...

Rob E
Fast Driver
Posts: 485
Joined: Wed Apr 23, 2003 11:00 am
Vehicle: ND - 2 GT
Location: Sydney
Contact:

Postby Rob E » Mon Dec 04, 2006 2:28 pm

hmmm....any interest in reviving a cam group buy? I'd be looking for something like the Tomei Pon cams http://www.tomei-p.co.jp/inf/pdf/66_en.pdf that perform well on standard ECU and dont require adjustable cam gears....Believe the Tighe 708C cams are quite similar to these and will be cheaper.

Price i have for 1 set of the Tomeis is AUD 1000 and that without much looking around.


Return to “MX5 Engines, Transmission & Final Drive”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 11 guests