Alex's white NA8 build.
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- Alex 2550
- Racing Driver
- Posts: 561
- Joined: Mon May 11, 2015 12:01 pm
- Vehicle: NA8
- Location: Far south coast NSW
Re: Alex's white NA8 build.
So moving forward in small steps and my typical long posts.
There has been a small delay in getting the parts back from ceramic coating. I got a discounted rate waiting for a batch to go in so it’s all good the coating place was a day late but my courier doesn’t go back till the weekend so instead of getting it all today it will be Monday.
Last weekend I installed the Walbro 190HP pump, that’s high pressure not horsepower.
A factory pump would be fine for my goals but I wasn’t sure if it’s condition so to be safe I put the upgrade in.
Bit of a pain as I had to remove the roll bar but not a big deal, I took photos along the way but for some reason I deleted them.
I went the Walbro over other options like the DW200 ect because I have used Walbro in the past and never had an issue with them, there is some talk of other options and not being overly reliable.
The downside is Walbro do have the classic big pump whine but this one comes with a sleeve to make it a little quieter, not sure it works but to put in perspective my exhaust is very quiet and I can’t hear the pump with the engine running at idle and no top up. This is the Walbro in the factory hanger, as you can see it’s slightly longer and fatter than the original.
While I was mucking around back there I cleaned out a one way valve that’s under the plate on the parcel shelf, Revlimiter.net did a blog some time ago about fuel fumes and pressure in the tank from the valve being blocked. He removed the valve.
I believe the little valve is to allow the tank to breath but closes in a rollover to stop fuel leaking out.
He found cleaning out the valve made a big difference but it didn’t last long, about a year.
I pulled it out and it was indeed partially blocked, the valve is a simple one way ball valve but the ball was hardly moving and sounded gritty, I blasted it with brake clean and heaps of junk came out.
After cleaning the ball moved freely, I have never had the fumes or pressure problem but while I was there I thought I might as well give it a clean.
I didn’t removed the valve because I assume that it’s never been cleaned in the cars life so if it’s lasted 26 years so far then a good clean should be fine.
This is the valve in a photo taken from Revlimiter.net
Also while I was back there I did the fuel pump wiring upgrade that’s pretty well known.
Basically the bigger pumps draw more current and can stuff the fuel pump relay leaving you stranded but also the factory wiring struggles to supply the amperage so the pump output can fluctuate at different voltage making it harder to tune.
So in short I mounted a relay in the boot rather than under the plate like some kits do so it’s easily serviced. I don’t want to remove the roll bar to replace a relay.
I used the original pump power wire to trigger the relay in the boot so it no longer has a large amperage flowing through the stock relay which i retained. The wire was blue with a red trace.
I then have the power running direct from the battery in some 30 amp twin core cable, through a 30 amp fuse, the new relay and factory grommet to the factory fuel pump plug.
If looking under the pump inspection plate it looks standard.
In the boot there is a relay mounted near the earth strap near the battery but it’s the only thing that hints that there is a modification. All wires run with the factory loom.
I have also removed the factory power aerial and have put a small chrome blanking plug there, my aerial is stuffed and the car no longer has a radio in it. (Will have a Bluetooth receiver)
I haven’t dríven the car yet, tuned it looked at AFR’s or anything but the car does catch faster on start up than it ever has so possibly the old pump was a little tired.
I hope to get the flow force 640 injectors in over the next couple days and get the tune back to how it is now which honestly is better than the factory ecu.
The injectors flow card I have shows my injectors to flow 649, 650, 655 and 655cc so I will set the size at 652cc in megasquirt as it’s the average.
the injectors will go up in size the further back in the motor so for example cylinder 3 and 4 will have the 655 in them as a very very small counter measure to the increased heat in the back cylinders, makes sense in my head lol.
From my research it shouldn’t be hard to get the tune back to how it is with the injector upgrade, I have to change size, dead times and with MS3 voltage offset which I have all that info.
I’ll then see how close we get to the target AFR’s and adjust where needed if auto tune can’t get it.
Looking forward to seeing how the idle and light throttle is with the EV14 injectors as it’s meant to be a good improvement, I have NB red injectors at the minute and they are far better than the tan NA8 ones I originally had.
Once that’s sorted it’s time to start mounting the turbo gear which I’m really excited about.
Thanks to everyone who is reading my ramblings along on this journey.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
There has been a small delay in getting the parts back from ceramic coating. I got a discounted rate waiting for a batch to go in so it’s all good the coating place was a day late but my courier doesn’t go back till the weekend so instead of getting it all today it will be Monday.
Last weekend I installed the Walbro 190HP pump, that’s high pressure not horsepower.
A factory pump would be fine for my goals but I wasn’t sure if it’s condition so to be safe I put the upgrade in.
Bit of a pain as I had to remove the roll bar but not a big deal, I took photos along the way but for some reason I deleted them.
I went the Walbro over other options like the DW200 ect because I have used Walbro in the past and never had an issue with them, there is some talk of other options and not being overly reliable.
The downside is Walbro do have the classic big pump whine but this one comes with a sleeve to make it a little quieter, not sure it works but to put in perspective my exhaust is very quiet and I can’t hear the pump with the engine running at idle and no top up. This is the Walbro in the factory hanger, as you can see it’s slightly longer and fatter than the original.
While I was mucking around back there I cleaned out a one way valve that’s under the plate on the parcel shelf, Revlimiter.net did a blog some time ago about fuel fumes and pressure in the tank from the valve being blocked. He removed the valve.
I believe the little valve is to allow the tank to breath but closes in a rollover to stop fuel leaking out.
He found cleaning out the valve made a big difference but it didn’t last long, about a year.
I pulled it out and it was indeed partially blocked, the valve is a simple one way ball valve but the ball was hardly moving and sounded gritty, I blasted it with brake clean and heaps of junk came out.
After cleaning the ball moved freely, I have never had the fumes or pressure problem but while I was there I thought I might as well give it a clean.
I didn’t removed the valve because I assume that it’s never been cleaned in the cars life so if it’s lasted 26 years so far then a good clean should be fine.
This is the valve in a photo taken from Revlimiter.net
Also while I was back there I did the fuel pump wiring upgrade that’s pretty well known.
Basically the bigger pumps draw more current and can stuff the fuel pump relay leaving you stranded but also the factory wiring struggles to supply the amperage so the pump output can fluctuate at different voltage making it harder to tune.
So in short I mounted a relay in the boot rather than under the plate like some kits do so it’s easily serviced. I don’t want to remove the roll bar to replace a relay.
I used the original pump power wire to trigger the relay in the boot so it no longer has a large amperage flowing through the stock relay which i retained. The wire was blue with a red trace.
I then have the power running direct from the battery in some 30 amp twin core cable, through a 30 amp fuse, the new relay and factory grommet to the factory fuel pump plug.
If looking under the pump inspection plate it looks standard.
In the boot there is a relay mounted near the earth strap near the battery but it’s the only thing that hints that there is a modification. All wires run with the factory loom.
I have also removed the factory power aerial and have put a small chrome blanking plug there, my aerial is stuffed and the car no longer has a radio in it. (Will have a Bluetooth receiver)
I haven’t dríven the car yet, tuned it looked at AFR’s or anything but the car does catch faster on start up than it ever has so possibly the old pump was a little tired.
I hope to get the flow force 640 injectors in over the next couple days and get the tune back to how it is now which honestly is better than the factory ecu.
The injectors flow card I have shows my injectors to flow 649, 650, 655 and 655cc so I will set the size at 652cc in megasquirt as it’s the average.
the injectors will go up in size the further back in the motor so for example cylinder 3 and 4 will have the 655 in them as a very very small counter measure to the increased heat in the back cylinders, makes sense in my head lol.
From my research it shouldn’t be hard to get the tune back to how it is with the injector upgrade, I have to change size, dead times and with MS3 voltage offset which I have all that info.
I’ll then see how close we get to the target AFR’s and adjust where needed if auto tune can’t get it.
Looking forward to seeing how the idle and light throttle is with the EV14 injectors as it’s meant to be a good improvement, I have NB red injectors at the minute and they are far better than the tan NA8 ones I originally had.
Once that’s sorted it’s time to start mounting the turbo gear which I’m really excited about.
Thanks to everyone who is reading my ramblings along on this journey.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Retro NA8
build viewtopic.php?f=57&t=71923
build viewtopic.php?f=57&t=71923
- Alex 2550
- Racing Driver
- Posts: 561
- Joined: Mon May 11, 2015 12:01 pm
- Vehicle: NA8
- Location: Far south coast NSW
Re: Alex's white NA8 build.
Ok so EV14 flowforce 640cc injectors are in.
Install was easy.
Just a little something I do when changing injectors in the BP is once I remove the fuel rail bolts I put screwdrivers in the holes so you can pop the rail away and easily grab those little spacers so they don’t get dropped into the black abyss of the engine bay.
I changed the required fuel in tuner studio,
I set the injector size at 652cc as that is the average of my set from 649 to 655cc, set dead time and voltage offset as per the flowforce recommendation below.
Car fired straight up but I had a hunting idle and AFR sweeping.
I increased dead time from 1.12ms to 1.32ms as a bandaid and it was better but not great.
So I played with the idle VE table and it’s much better now. I plan to go back to the original dead time and play with VE again.
I took the car for a small drive of about 10km.
I had a few lean areas that I adjusted manually then let auto tune take over, the difference from leaving home and getting back was night and day in such a small time, I believe I can get it dialled in quickly.
An interesting observation is that the car is again smoother and I believe has more torque, I noticed in 5th at 100kmh that it maintained speed up a hill near me easier, better atomisation perhaps or the fact the spray pattern shoots straight at the ports?
I don’t know but it’s there…….. car also has a fresh tank of BP ultimate in it so it could be that as well.
Manifold, elbow and dump pipe come back tomorrow from ceramic coating so if I can get this tune dialled in the turbo conversion will start this week.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Install was easy.
Just a little something I do when changing injectors in the BP is once I remove the fuel rail bolts I put screwdrivers in the holes so you can pop the rail away and easily grab those little spacers so they don’t get dropped into the black abyss of the engine bay.
I changed the required fuel in tuner studio,
I set the injector size at 652cc as that is the average of my set from 649 to 655cc, set dead time and voltage offset as per the flowforce recommendation below.
Car fired straight up but I had a hunting idle and AFR sweeping.
I increased dead time from 1.12ms to 1.32ms as a bandaid and it was better but not great.
So I played with the idle VE table and it’s much better now. I plan to go back to the original dead time and play with VE again.
I took the car for a small drive of about 10km.
I had a few lean areas that I adjusted manually then let auto tune take over, the difference from leaving home and getting back was night and day in such a small time, I believe I can get it dialled in quickly.
An interesting observation is that the car is again smoother and I believe has more torque, I noticed in 5th at 100kmh that it maintained speed up a hill near me easier, better atomisation perhaps or the fact the spray pattern shoots straight at the ports?
I don’t know but it’s there…….. car also has a fresh tank of BP ultimate in it so it could be that as well.
Manifold, elbow and dump pipe come back tomorrow from ceramic coating so if I can get this tune dialled in the turbo conversion will start this week.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Retro NA8
build viewtopic.php?f=57&t=71923
build viewtopic.php?f=57&t=71923
- bartmanftw
- Fast Driver
- Posts: 451
- Joined: Wed Oct 30, 2013 1:35 pm
- Vehicle: NA6
- Location: Victoria
Re: Alex's white NA8 build.
I've always had a bit of a difference at low load where the dead time has more effect when swapping from OEM to those injectors. Probably due to incorrect dead time settings for the OEM injectors and the improved spray pattern. I'd suggest just putting the dead times back to the recommended values and adjust the VE table to hit your fuel targets again.
- Alex 2550
- Racing Driver
- Posts: 561
- Joined: Mon May 11, 2015 12:01 pm
- Vehicle: NA8
- Location: Far south coast NSW
Re: Alex's white NA8 build.
bartmanftw wrote:I've always had a bit of a difference at low load where the dead time has more effect when swapping from OEM to those injectors. Probably due to incorrect dead time settings for the OEM injectors and the improved spray pattern. I'd suggest just putting the dead times back to the recommended values and adjust the VE table to hit your fuel targets again.
Thanks mate, I think you are right.
Fingers crossed I’ll get some time this afternoon to play with the idle and take it for a proper drive, it’s close but not good enough.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Retro NA8
build viewtopic.php?f=57&t=71923
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- Alex 2550
- Racing Driver
- Posts: 561
- Joined: Mon May 11, 2015 12:01 pm
- Vehicle: NA8
- Location: Far south coast NSW
Re: Alex's white NA8 build.
We have parts!!!
Unfortunately no time, I was hoping to get tuning in yesterday arvo but didn’t get out of work till around 8.
But we have these back from coating
It’s ugly weather here and I need to service the Patrol tonight so tuning today is out.
If I get a chance I may try get the studs in the turbo and manifold tonight.
I’m thinking stage 8 locking nuts from turbo to manifold but I’m not sure they will fit on the turbo to dump pipe elbow. I have those copper oval locking nuts I could use but I have had mixed results in the past and found them to be a bastard to remove.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Unfortunately no time, I was hoping to get tuning in yesterday arvo but didn’t get out of work till around 8.
But we have these back from coating
It’s ugly weather here and I need to service the Patrol tonight so tuning today is out.
If I get a chance I may try get the studs in the turbo and manifold tonight.
I’m thinking stage 8 locking nuts from turbo to manifold but I’m not sure they will fit on the turbo to dump pipe elbow. I have those copper oval locking nuts I could use but I have had mixed results in the past and found them to be a bastard to remove.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Retro NA8
build viewtopic.php?f=57&t=71923
build viewtopic.php?f=57&t=71923
- Alex 2550
- Racing Driver
- Posts: 561
- Joined: Mon May 11, 2015 12:01 pm
- Vehicle: NA8
- Location: Far south coast NSW
Re: Alex's white NA8 build.
Just some studs in last night, need to trim 2 down slightly.
It’s going to look pretty good fitted up.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
It’s going to look pretty good fitted up.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Retro NA8
build viewtopic.php?f=57&t=71923
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- ManiacLachy
- Forum Guru
- Posts: 3263
- Joined: Mon Jan 13, 2014 2:35 pm
- Vehicle: NB SE
- Location: Brisbane
Re: Alex's white NA8 build.
Making good progress, little steps all add up!
I love that Kraken elbow for the Garrett turbos, it's a great piece.
I love that Kraken elbow for the Garrett turbos, it's a great piece.
- greenMachine
- Forum Guru
- Posts: 4044
- Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2003 11:00 am
- Vehicle: NB SE
- Location: Sports car paradise - Canberra
- Contact:
Re: Alex's white NA8 build.
What is the access like for the lower manifold nuts with the turbo mounted?
I never met a horsepower I didn't like (thanks bwob)
Build thread
NB SE - gone to the dark side (and loving it )
Build thread
NB SE - gone to the dark side (and loving it )
- Alex 2550
- Racing Driver
- Posts: 561
- Joined: Mon May 11, 2015 12:01 pm
- Vehicle: NA8
- Location: Far south coast NSW
Re: Alex's white NA8 build.
greenMachine wrote:What is the access like for the lower manifold nuts with the turbo mounted?
Not too bad at all, probably easier than the factory headers.
These might help give you an idea.
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Retro NA8
build viewtopic.php?f=57&t=71923
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- Alex 2550
- Racing Driver
- Posts: 561
- Joined: Mon May 11, 2015 12:01 pm
- Vehicle: NA8
- Location: Far south coast NSW
Re: Alex's white NA8 build.
ManiacLachy wrote:Making good progress, little steps all add up!
I love that Kraken elbow for the Garrett turbos, it's a great piece.
Thanks mate,
It’s getting there.
It’s a really nice piece, heaps of clearance and flow.
I have seen others that aren’t great around the wastegate port on some previous projects.
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Retro NA8
build viewtopic.php?f=57&t=71923
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- Alex 2550
- Racing Driver
- Posts: 561
- Joined: Mon May 11, 2015 12:01 pm
- Vehicle: NA8
- Location: Far south coast NSW
Re: Alex's white NA8 build.
Took the chance on Sunday afternoon to go for a decent drive and try dial the car in.
I’m pretty happy with the results except a slight jerking at very light throttle at very low speeds, I should be able to sort it out as it’s only minor.
Starting and idling at all temps is pretty spot on, not perfect but I think many wouldn’t pick it’s not on a standard 90’s ECU.
Sooooooo it begins.
Intake off, heat shield off, manifold nuts soaked in penetrating oil and all nuts cracked.
I was hoping to get more time on it tonight but sadly work got in the way.
Not a complete loss of a day though, a few little parts arrived from our good friends at MX5 Mania
MLS exhaust manifold gasket and Mazdaspeed competition engine mounts.
These are harder than the ones on the SE and are 40% stiffer than stock.
I nearly went the hybrid setup with a solid mount on exhaust side and a comp mount on intake but it’s apparently pretty harsh.
I have still heard that these can be ripped with hard shifted turbo cars and I may need a solid later but I’m giving it a try, I read somewhere that a guy filled the sides of the mount with a sikaflex silicone type product that would still squish and move a bit but bonded the mount on the sides increasing the bonded area more to reduce overall stress and reduce the chance of tearing the mount in two.
I figured it would be easier changing the exhaust side now and plan to put some heat reflective tape on the mount to reduce the effects of heat on the rubber.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I’m pretty happy with the results except a slight jerking at very light throttle at very low speeds, I should be able to sort it out as it’s only minor.
Starting and idling at all temps is pretty spot on, not perfect but I think many wouldn’t pick it’s not on a standard 90’s ECU.
Sooooooo it begins.
Intake off, heat shield off, manifold nuts soaked in penetrating oil and all nuts cracked.
I was hoping to get more time on it tonight but sadly work got in the way.
Not a complete loss of a day though, a few little parts arrived from our good friends at MX5 Mania
MLS exhaust manifold gasket and Mazdaspeed competition engine mounts.
These are harder than the ones on the SE and are 40% stiffer than stock.
I nearly went the hybrid setup with a solid mount on exhaust side and a comp mount on intake but it’s apparently pretty harsh.
I have still heard that these can be ripped with hard shifted turbo cars and I may need a solid later but I’m giving it a try, I read somewhere that a guy filled the sides of the mount with a sikaflex silicone type product that would still squish and move a bit but bonded the mount on the sides increasing the bonded area more to reduce overall stress and reduce the chance of tearing the mount in two.
I figured it would be easier changing the exhaust side now and plan to put some heat reflective tape on the mount to reduce the effects of heat on the rubber.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Retro NA8
build viewtopic.php?f=57&t=71923
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- greenMachine
- Forum Guru
- Posts: 4044
- Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2003 11:00 am
- Vehicle: NB SE
- Location: Sports car paradise - Canberra
- Contact:
Re: Alex's white NA8 build.
Thanks Alex, that looks good. I'm following closely
I never met a horsepower I didn't like (thanks bwob)
Build thread
NB SE - gone to the dark side (and loving it )
Build thread
NB SE - gone to the dark side (and loving it )
-
- Racing Driver
- Posts: 1770
- Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 1:39 pm
- Vehicle: NB8A
- Location: FarSE Melbourne
Re: Alex's white NA8 build.
Alex 2550 wrote:
MLS exhaust manifold gasket and Mazdaspeed competition engine mounts.
These are harder than the ones on the SE and are 40% stiffer than stock.
I nearly went the hybrid setup with a solid mount on exhaust side and a comp mount on intake but it’s apparently pretty harsh
I think the effects of the mounts is very subjective.
I ran competition mount for 10 years and just swapped to the solid/rubber hybrid mounts and tbh didn’t notice much of a change in nvh. Probably a bit more vibration just off idle, but certainly no mirror shaking or the like.
But then mines a noisy track car anyway, so a pristine daily driver might be way more noticeable..
- PaulF
- Racing Driver
- Posts: 1805
- Joined: Fri Jan 28, 2011 5:55 pm
- Vehicle: NA6
- Location: Newcastle, NSW
Re: Alex's white NA8 build.
Alex 2550 wrote:I’m pretty happy with the results except a slight jerking at very light throttle at very low speeds, I should be able to sort it out as it’s only minor.
It might be overrun fuel cut settings. I had an issue after my last tune where the TPS threshold was set too high, so it would sometimes interpret my very light throttle as zero and cut the fuel. Then I add throttle to recover, fuel switches back on, I back off, fuel cut again, and so on. Just needed to lower that TPS setting right down and it was good.
- ManiacLachy
- Forum Guru
- Posts: 3263
- Joined: Mon Jan 13, 2014 2:35 pm
- Vehicle: NB SE
- Location: Brisbane
Re: Alex's white NA8 build.
PaulF wrote:It might be overrun fuel cut settings.
That's a good tip, thanks Paul. I've noticed a similar thing recently but I haven't had a chance to log it and investigate. I'll keep this in mind when I get to it.
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